Memers argument #2 please don't be at each other's throats, is that too much to ask for?

ed_that_guy

So I made a post a while ago ‘the memers argument’ which was closed for a very good reason that ppl were constantly at each other’s throats not to name any names but I already think you know who you are. So I’m making another post which hopefully won’t turn into a post like the previous as I want to make a positive impact and I know that shewolf said that she would take any questions directly but I believe that it isn’t the way to deal with it. We need to make it so that it can be (maturely) debated among the community unlike it was before. So I got that out of the way now we can actually put our points across.

So as most of you know I would like a relaxation In the rules to be more allowing to ppl with a higher tolerance for jokes. At the moment the main problem is that the rules are blurred there is a foggy line left for interpretation by the viewer. We say that we can not allow A, B and C but we do not clearly define A, B and C and the Ines who do enter their personal bias opinion which is not what I think should happen as it can be confusing for a number of reasons. So a quick and very easy solution would to say ok there is a blurry line let’s make it sharp; from now one anything that can be offensive in any way is punishable. This may be effective of clearing the matter of what A, B and C is but it defeats the purpose of a community. I think that it’s safe to say that without debate we want GG to grow and expand in numbers but that can’t always work if the rules are so strict you will often find ppl come on to joke and have a laugh which I have seen many time which in most cases has been followed by a staff member telling them they can’t do it and/or mute/gagging them which isn’t what we want if ppl join they want to be welcomed not pushed away. What I propose is that we should not punish them IF they are the only ones being affected. This means that no matter the amount of ppl on the server at the time if no one finds it offensive then they should be allowed to continue. Some may say how would you decide if ppl took offence well it is simple A) do you get a report in admin chat to deal with this matter bc someone doesn’t like it. Or it states in the application for janitor that you should be 15+ or mature so that should mean you should be able to look at the chat and decide to a reasonable extent whether someone is being annoyed by this and if so you should pm them and ask them what’s wrong and it may just be they don’t want ppl constantly taking into the mic in which case you can tell them how to block sound from certain ppl or if they find it offence you should, with that maturity, decide if it is too offensive in which case then yes tell them and if they don’t shut up, sure mute/gag them but you can not expect someone to seriously stop taking bc a person put into chat ‘can you shut up’ or something along those lines we both know that’s going to do nothing to stop it so we need to have a better system to deal with it and actually relax the rules so that it isn’t in the complete hands of staff to deal with the matter but the community itself and how they feel.

So I’m very welcome to any other opinion may it be long the same lines as mine or completely different I will respect them but I will also put a counter comment across to let you try and see the other side but as I said at the start please don’t attack someone directly put your opinion on the matter across and nothing else to do with anyone in particular bc that’s what got the last post closed and I want to try and make a decent and positive change… if that isn’t too much to ask for

Shewolf

I agree that people should only be muted if the are bothering other people. And it is generally how I deal - I get complaints about something I put an end to it. Simple as that.

About the "Tell teh person how to mute someone in game" this can be a problem in Jailbreak as if that annoying non-stop talking and offensive player gets muted and then goes warden, The mutee will be constantly RDMd as they MUTED THE WARDEN -_- where-as I see the point in this in Murder, Deathrun and Bhop (not sure in TTT it seems like you are kinda required to hear if someone calls out a traitor). This would be uselss in Jailbreak. Therefor, I will be sticking with I get a complaint I deal with it with a warning, a mute/gag then a kick. I will not be changing this in any way.

ed_that_guy

Ok that would be a problem but if someone has got as bad as to be muted then that person could not warden any better and would be forced to either go prisoner or guard but not claiming wardon either way as a result of that the person who has a dislike to what they are saying could mute that person again w/out it majorly affecting the game

ShootingStar

Hi ed. Shooting star here.

Not here to start an argurment but to afk "what if" situations. I actually don't disagree with most of the points you come out with but is there not a lot of "What if's" still that would mark the grey zone?

I will try to explain my self with an example:
3-4 friends of mine + me plays on ehhh murder for example and 4-5 other friends plays together as well on the same server. Then they start to call each other dickface and whatever because that is what friends do to each other. I am not in the mood for hearing constant trash talk to each other over mic so I "mute" them as you have told me how to do and staff don't seem to have a problem with them calling each other dicks.

Suddenly a third party "one of my friends" shouts "Ahh come on SHUT UP". Then I would have no clue to whom or why he is saying shut up. Suddenly he might have a dissusion with the 4-5 other friends that I don't wanna be listen to. Former staff leaves and a new staff member comes in. The other 4-5 friends complains in admin chat that someone tells them to shut up when they actually were the ones who started to constanly talk over mic.
Staff desides to mute or gag my friend cause he is being loud. Now I can't hear him anymore and neither can I deffend my friend cause I did not hear what the other 4-5 friends said to him cause I had them muted. The new staff member don't know the whole story and only know what happend when they joined.

This would have an impact on me and the rest of my friends cause now we can no longer talk with the muted friend (who spoke out that it was the other 4-5 people) who were being loud.

(This is not something that have happend but something I easy can see could happen).

Now the simple answer would be. Why don't you (Shooting Star) just tell your friend that he can mute them as well like you did?

Well if we have to tell everyone everytime they join how to mute people because they are loud then it would be a long life right?

I am not targeting anyone here (anonymous people) so please don't say I am a terrible player or whatever again. I am just trying to have an argument with ed here and a pleasant time on GG.

ed_that_guy

Well I can see where you are coming from and I will answer some of your points the one about having a long life telling ppl how to mute; have a bind like most staff do for certain things, if you don't have bond keys then yes it may be a long life but as a staff member that's what you signed up for when I submitted my jan application ik what I have signed up for and that is just something I have to deal with as it's helping the community which is our ultimate goal to achieve, to the rest I couldn't follow most of it but from what I could gather a fix could be to contact the privious online staff member as most staff members will have each other on steam or another msging service to resolve the matter. Now that wouldn't be a fast fix if the person went offline so then the staff member would have to deal with this in his/her own way be either keeping him/her muted for mic spam and a report on admin chat or unmute him and listen to everyone's side of the story. If I didn't cover any points you made/there is a fault with one of them let me know and I will do my best to try and tell you a solution

ShootingStar

Thank you for quick answer. That did semi answer my "what if" situation. My point in short is that there is always two sides to a story that have to be taken into consideration.

So there will always be a grey zone no matter how well you explain the rules unless you have read law or ... yeah smart stuff xD

ed_that_guy

XD well I do ready law but I'm guessing that's beside the point... and yes there will always be a gray zone but the best we can do is minimalise how big the zone is

ed_that_guy

Read*. I need to add characters to post this comment

Inge

First things first. For someone that wants to have a mature argument about the matter, it wasn't a very mature and necessary first sentence.

I like to look at things from another point of view then you guys are looking at now.

For example GG is struggling with getting new players that actually stick around at the moment. So I place myself in a new players mind that joins a server like GG. If people are allowed to call each other whatever they want this would be the case: First thing I see is some people that I don't know calling each other dickface, fucker, nigger or whatever the fuck is being said. My first impression: uhm...not really my scene. I wouldn't feel comfortable to start a conversation with those people (and most of the others in a server are not really chatting when this kind of stuff is going on usually). It would most likely trigger irritation instead of spontaneous chatting. It would be very different when you join a server and the players are chatting and talking about games or just cheeky teasing. I would feel way more at ease here.

I personally think it is selfish to say that you are not affecting anyone else in the server (even if there are no complaints). You got to think of the bigger picture here. Not everyone actually says they find something uncomfortable or annoying and they just leave and never come back. Yes people need to be able to take a joke, but I personally think that should be in a place where is not necessarily forced upon everyone playing on our servers. For that we have TeamSpeak, Discord, Steamgroupchat (whoever that actually uses).

It is a very different server but I became admin on the MiniServers where I had a few servers. I forced myself to say hi to every new person that joined and asked how they were etc. I don't mind trolls at all and DR attracts a lot of them for example but I didn't accept any disrespect to me or any other player, even if they were friends. I always asked them kindly to take that to TS or anywhere else, but they were very welcome to keep playing and chatting. I got the servers populated quite fast due to that and ended up with a solid player base that (usually) had a great time together without stepping out of line on the servers itself. The things that were said on TS were a different story, but like I said. There it isn't forced on anyone and they don't bother anyone that just wants to have a relaxed time on the servers. Of course there are also boundaries on TS as well, but I feel there are other boundaries there.

ed_that_guy

Ok I get what you are saying, as a new player you would prefer a more confortable environment. Yet from the last time I remember joining when there wasn't any staff on there was a group of 7-10+ players on who were using the langue that you won't usually use. So what I'm trying to say is yes we do what to create a comforterble environment but you can't ever tell the environment that the new players. So that's why the solution to place any complaints in admin chat as when I'm on I see multiple staff saying regularly in chat if there is anything you want to report add @ b4 your msg to contact staff to deal w/ your matters. That's been my experience anyway and it's obviously different to everyone else which is why I made a post to see the other side. so that is what I have seen and I'm saying that it is hard to tell what new players want bc there is never a definite answer

ed_that_guy

To the point about using ts it's not really the point of you are in game you want to say the things you want to at the time not wait until you are both set up into a longer

Inge

Aren't we talking about the general rules and how staff needs to deal with that? You are now talking about a time when there was no staff on. Not only rules like "be respectful" etc. will then be broken but also things like RDM, propsurfing etc. Those things are also not okay even when there is no staff on. I personally think it is too late when people make complaints in the admin chat about situations. Staff needs to keep an eye out and warn before it goes way too far for people to complaint about it. It's also about preventing bad situations before things that go the wrong way, not only about solving it when it's already done.

And the point about TS. Yes I get that you still needs to join TS if you aren't already, but if you want to chat with friends without any or almost no boundaries, I advice you to get on TS when you start playing. Then you wouldn't have the problem of saying things you shouldn't in the server itself.

Disconbobulated

Hi @ShootingStar, Silent is too busy dealing with his shit storm of a life to be bothered with thinking of a constructive comment rn as he just stat ed on our group chat "I'm crying rn that was beautiful" and "nah idk what to comment mate" but I would also like to address some of the points you made if that's okay.
I personally from past experience and other players will probably back me up here completely agree with you on the matter of when another staff member comes along and tries to deal with a situation that occurred before they where online, so this is what I propose due to the fact that it is unrealistic to always expect the staff member who has just come online to always be able to contact the one that has just left, because what if there wasn't one on when it happened along with them going offline on steam and so on, I am right in think all staff are on a kik chat tho but even still they might not be able to view it when they go offline, and its unrealistic for that staff member to be able to get a statement from everybody involved to deal with the situation, that's even assuming that everybody is telling the truth and not holding back information.

So back to my solution,
I propose that:
The staff member tells everybody who is complaining about something that happened before they got online in one short message that all players can see, possibly via "t say", for those with no clue what that is it enables staff to send a message everybody can see in chat but doesn't include a name or rank before the message, just the message, that they are unable to deal with anything that happened before they got online but they will take notes of their reports and if they see the behavior occurring they will assume the report was accurate and then deal with it then. Personally I think this is the ideal solution for everybody, it avoids people getting punished for something they didn't do or didn't do the full extent of what is being said and it also stops the person if they did do said action from doing said action again as they now know that their past offences will be punished along with their future offences if they choose to do said offence again.

Also just too add, if somebody is looking to punish or report somebody for something that happened whilst another staff member was online wouldn't it make sense to ignore the report as it was something that happened when another staff member was online so surely they would have dealt with it at the time? Just pointing out a fact that I often think is overlooked as if the person is making the report to you they clearly show the ability to be able to make a report and contact staff so I would assume they had made contact with the staff that was just online and that staff had deemed it non punishable.

Now you may point out that what if they had been given a warning by the staff member who just left and this time it should be a mute/gag but they are given another warning. This is why we have trusted members and people we trust personally, ask them and trust in the fact that they will give you the truth about whether the person had been given a warning if somebody claims they had. If there is no members online of this type and you cant make contact with the staff that was just online then a warning system might come in handy where the warnings are given via a command and then viewable view a command, I know this was planned to be implemented into jb as staff mocked the fact they could view peoples warnings but not actually give them, if you cant get that too work then I say what can another warning hurt?like srsly is it that bad them getting warned again? would you prefer to be unfairly muted or gagged due to people falsely claiming things or have somebody get away with another warning every now and then as this is a massive if this and that cant happen situation

Sorry for the massive statement once again, anonymous user out( Silent is still crying like a pussy and nobody else said anything else about the post just raze sent a video of a moth spinning in circles...)

Djharper

If our hypothetical universe where it is a group of friends sharing banter and they are part of our community can we get TS rooms without staffing (while we have private lounges staff do what they want). Now, if you join the room you accept any insults thrown around, leave if you don't like it? Obviously if you get uncomfortable the problem should be attempted to be fixed yet no punishment can befall the one who caused the problem if it was within the lounge. Once someone leaves they are a no insult target. This solves the issue as you have to willingly and knowingly join that lounge therefore stopping the banter problem. People who want to talk in server with a banterous and hateful approach now have a place outside of game for this fun and staff cannot deal with the people involved if it's all in good fun in this lounge giving them freedom, if a participant dislikes it they may leave to be free. Set up 3 maybe and give private lounge owners the choice of accepting rules or revoking them and now we can all prevent headaches instead of curing them with tea and instead drink it for pleasure. Thanks, feel free to discuss or rip it apart as it has flaws but we could solve it in peace, not arguments but compromises.

Disconbobulated

@Djharper I could kiss you right now, we defo need one of them, it could work like the nsfw chat on discord, except for not actually get moderated unlike the nsfw...-Silent

I'm not gay so I'm not gonna kiss you like Silent says he wants to @Djharper but I still fully agree with you on this, that would work and would put a good chunk of this discussion to rest however I did get a tad confused when you started talking about private lounges accepting or revoking the rules even after a second read sorry-Me

Disconbobulated

*not get moderated unlike the nsfw

Djharper

Honestly, I don't need to English until schools back xD. Yeah, pretty much I meant if you own a private lounge the lounge owner decides all, not staff unless they leave lounge moderation to the staff.

Disconbobulated

@Djharper Right thanks that makes a bit more sense

Oriichilari

I haven't read the comments or the whole post because I'm lazy so the things I bring up might have already been addressed.

For me it was always a combination of strict staff, and immature cunts. For some reason some staff tend to feel a bit entitled when it comes to moderating a gmod server and tend to act like they're a school teacher as opposed to someone who just wrote how much GG means to them on a Janitor Application. What staff need to understand it seems is that most of the people on the servers are in fact underage, so they're not going to behave like the most mature of human beings. In the end those are the people who make up the majority of our player-base so it makes sense that staff act around what is appropriate to these age ranges. This is backed up by the fact^{[citation needed]} that most of the issues with "strict staff" I've seen come from staff who have been here much longer than I, back when it seemed that GG had a lot more older people and "squeakers" weren't even allowed to use mics, whether this is actually related I have no clue

But what the problem really boils down to, are these select few immature cunts. I haven't familiarised myself with the problem this post is probably referring to but when I was staff, most of the complaints I got about being too strict were, well, stupid. If you're screaming offensive words regardless of context that is harmful both to my ears and other people on the server. Perhaps why staff sometimes behave like teachers is because some people treat GG like a playground, running around screaming with no regard to other people.If the context truly matters, or if it's just an inside joke, then keep it inside. . If you (and your friends) are the only one to get this joke, then it's ludicrous to think that staff should be more lenient to you because of it. Insults do create a hostile environment, even if you're not involved, which is plain to see as an outsider be it staff or newcomer to the server. Save your personal antics to personal lounges.

Also whoever mentioned that the rules need to be more clear is silly, "who needs a thousand metaphors to figure out you shouldn't be a dick". In my time as staff the fact that it's stated that rules are up to the interpretation of the staff played for the most part in my favour seeing as smartasses like to point out that what they're doing "isn't even [not allowed] in the rules". You could just leave the rules as "don't be an insensitive prick" and it would cover most of the existing ones to begin with.

In the end, the servers should be friendly and welcoming to all. Right now this seems to be being hindered by both staff and current players. There's a clear disjoint between old staff, and players who joined in the last few months.

This can all be solved with just a bit of Jolly Cooperation \[T]/

CrashOverride

@Oriichilari here, has hit the fucking nail straight on the head with all of his points and as you have said Orii, "This can all be solved with a bit of Cooperation" also since I'm commenting,

I would like to point out how Orii mentioned "You could just leave the rules as "don't be an insensitive prick"", the thing is, the rules SHOULD ALREADY, be like this, simply put if you want to be a community of friendly people with friendly staff and friendly players, then you need to start by being friendly yourself, anyone who comes here to ruin that or to start shit, should be banned without a reason at all.

I believe that at the moment the rules are too open and free, easily exploited amongst other things, hopefully in the near future we can see a better and clearer implementation of the rules, as well as some reform in terms of how we deal with things in this community, hopefully for the good of all of us except the ones who are dead. (thumbs up for gr8 game)

Shewolf

Hmmkay. I like what Orri said and it seems to sum up my thoughts on the matter nicely. Imma close it so you can all see that one. Please do not make another.